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	<title>Comments on: Church-hopping</title>
	<atom:link href="http://preachermike.com/2006/01/22/113788128703571837/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://preachermike.com/2006/01/22/113788128703571837</link>
	<description>Sniffing out the work of God in the world...</description>
	<pubDate>Sun, 12 Oct 2008 16:37:24 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: good rate car insurance</title>
		<link>http://preachermike.com/2006/01/22/113788128703571837#comment-66490</link>
		<dc:creator>good rate car insurance</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Jul 2007 13:10:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.preachermike.com/?p=686#comment-66490</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;good rate car insurance...&lt;/strong&gt;

Monash outlive classical benzene perturbed ...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>good rate car insurance&#8230;</strong></p>
<p>Monash outlive classical benzene perturbed &#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Tim Lewis</title>
		<link>http://preachermike.com/2006/01/22/113788128703571837#comment-7841</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Lewis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jan 2006 19:08:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.preachermike.com/?p=686#comment-7841</guid>
		<description>I was about to post the video, but Hoots beat me to it. I think it says it all.

&lt;a HREF="http://sermonspice.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=413" rel="nofollow"&gt;Me Church&lt;/A&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was about to post the video, but Hoots beat me to it. I think it says it all.</p>
<p><a HREF="http://sermonspice.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=413" rel="nofollow">Me Church</a></p>
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		<title>By: ACU35</title>
		<link>http://preachermike.com/2006/01/22/113788128703571837#comment-7840</link>
		<dc:creator>ACU35</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jan 2006 16:32:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.preachermike.com/?p=686#comment-7840</guid>
		<description>I like Jon's post.  Some churches just won't let you serve regardless, especially in the Church of Christ. It is more important to find a church where you can serve and if that means church hopping until you do then so be it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I like Jon&#8217;s post.  Some churches just won&#8217;t let you serve regardless, especially in the Church of Christ. It is more important to find a church where you can serve and if that means church hopping until you do then so be it.</p>
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		<title>By: Beverly</title>
		<link>http://preachermike.com/2006/01/22/113788128703571837#comment-7839</link>
		<dc:creator>Beverly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jan 2006 12:50:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.preachermike.com/?p=686#comment-7839</guid>
		<description>So important to let them know that they will be missed...that the family will grieve their absence...sometimes we are so on the mark with the issue that we leave a widow behind..</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So important to let them know that they will be missed&#8230;that the family will grieve their absence&#8230;sometimes we are so on the mark with the issue that we leave a widow behind..</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel Gray</title>
		<link>http://preachermike.com/2006/01/22/113788128703571837#comment-7838</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel Gray</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Jan 2006 18:27:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.preachermike.com/?p=686#comment-7838</guid>
		<description>I think that Jon made a good point about some "hoppers".  I did a little hopping in high-school and didn't really understand why I wasn't liking a lot of youth groups until I got to college.

I went to Highland most of my freshmen year.  I loved the church and it's purpose, but in the spring of that year, I found myself waking up and going back to sleep instead of church.  An uperclassmen took me to a small church outside of town, and from day 1, they have asked me to lead singing every time I was there.  I haven't left that little church and my attachment has grown to it.

I don't blame Highland and I still love to go when I get the chance.  But I had trouble with feeling like I was simply sitting in church and failing to find a way to get involved.  I had trouble finding a way to serve.  I think that was one of the things that attracted me to the small church.  It was easier to find a need and fill it.  If I ever miss, I get called and asked "where was our song leader?"  I think what has meant the most to me in finding the "right" church is the accountability and the ways I can fit in to serve the ministry of the church.

I think a lot of good has been said here.  I just want to remind everyone that there is no clear-cut reason for "hopping".  People have different motivations and it is important to take all the possibilities into account.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think that Jon made a good point about some &#8220;hoppers&#8221;.  I did a little hopping in high-school and didn&#8217;t really understand why I wasn&#8217;t liking a lot of youth groups until I got to college.</p>
<p>I went to Highland most of my freshmen year.  I loved the church and it&#8217;s purpose, but in the spring of that year, I found myself waking up and going back to sleep instead of church.  An uperclassmen took me to a small church outside of town, and from day 1, they have asked me to lead singing every time I was there.  I haven&#8217;t left that little church and my attachment has grown to it.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t blame Highland and I still love to go when I get the chance.  But I had trouble with feeling like I was simply sitting in church and failing to find a way to get involved.  I had trouble finding a way to serve.  I think that was one of the things that attracted me to the small church.  It was easier to find a need and fill it.  If I ever miss, I get called and asked &#8220;where was our song leader?&#8221;  I think what has meant the most to me in finding the &#8220;right&#8221; church is the accountability and the ways I can fit in to serve the ministry of the church.</p>
<p>I think a lot of good has been said here.  I just want to remind everyone that there is no clear-cut reason for &#8220;hopping&#8221;.  People have different motivations and it is important to take all the possibilities into account.</p>
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		<title>By: Hoots Musings</title>
		<link>http://preachermike.com/2006/01/22/113788128703571837#comment-7837</link>
		<dc:creator>Hoots Musings</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Jan 2006 18:14:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.preachermike.com/?p=686#comment-7837</guid>
		<description>I think Mike is driving more at a consumer type of church.  
View this: http://www.sermonspice.com/catalog/product_info.php?format_selected=wmv&#38;length_selected=long&#38;play=1&#38;products_id=413</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think Mike is driving more at a consumer type of church.<br />
View this: <a href="http://www.sermonspice.com/catalog/product_info.php?format_selected=wmv&amp;length_selected=long&amp;play=1&amp;products_id=413" rel="nofollow">http://www.sermonspice.com/catalog/product_info.php?format_selected=wmv&amp;length_selected=long&amp;play=1&amp;products_id=413</a></p>
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		<title>By: Steve Jr.</title>
		<link>http://preachermike.com/2006/01/22/113788128703571837#comment-7836</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Jr.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Jan 2006 16:14:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.preachermike.com/?p=686#comment-7836</guid>
		<description>ooh, I found another great nugget of reading goodness.  It's an interview with Ryan Bolger called &lt;a HREF="http://thebolgblog.typepad.com/thebolgblog/2006/01/marks_of_a_miss.html" rel="nofollow"&gt;"The Marks of a Missional Church"&lt;/A&gt;.  

If you are into the present conversation in the least, read it.  It really addresses some of the core issues here.

I'm done now.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>ooh, I found another great nugget of reading goodness.  It&#8217;s an interview with Ryan Bolger called <a HREF="http://thebolgblog.typepad.com/thebolgblog/2006/01/marks_of_a_miss.html" rel="nofollow">&#8220;The Marks of a Missional Church&#8221;</a>.  </p>
<p>If you are into the present conversation in the least, read it.  It really addresses some of the core issues here.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m done now.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Jr.</title>
		<link>http://preachermike.com/2006/01/22/113788128703571837#comment-7835</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Jr.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Jan 2006 16:07:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.preachermike.com/?p=686#comment-7835</guid>
		<description>I like everything everyone is saying, but I sense that the seeker vs. missional church dillemma is less about activity and more about identity.  The "changes" many people are talking about in the church are really changes of "activity" -- allowing women to do more, instruments in worship, the energy of worship, the enthusiasm of the preacher, etc.  What we need is a change in identity, and I think truly missional churches look vastly different than many of the churches we have today.

I just think Ryan Bolger's article titled &lt;a HREF="http://thebolgblog.typepad.com/thebolgblog/2005/10/please_no_more_.html" rel="nofollow"&gt;"Please, No More Doing Church For 'Them'!"&lt;/A&gt; speaks so much to this issue.

His assertion is that churches that claim to be relevant are almost never so.  In an attempt to be relevant, they alienate both the members and the "outsiders" (don't like that terminology, but oh well...).

He also points to another problem churches have being relevant to the daily lives of "outsiders":

&lt;I&gt;A focus on the church service as connecting point perpetuates the idea that following Jesus is about going to church. The community's life takes the form of American congregational religion rather than the fluid practices of the gospel, and this emphasis presents quite a barrier to the 'seeker' outside, as they need to be converted to the values of American religious congregationalism before they can come to faith. Thus, virtually all of those who are attracted to the relevant service were raised in church or are currently going to another church -- they are not the never-churched.&lt;/I&gt;

In contrast, the missional congregation:

&lt;I&gt;...connects with those outside the faith by, well, connecting with those outside of the community in their world. Connecting happens not in a 'come to us' CHURCH service, but through 'go and dwell' church SERVICE, i.e. service in the community -- living alternative lives.&lt;/I&gt;

Wow.  How many churches can say that something &lt;I&gt;other&lt;/I&gt; than the Sunday morning service is the major connecting point in their fellowship?  Probably very few.  But Bolger's assertions are not unlike the description of the church in Acts, where a once-a-week "service" was not at all central to the life of the community:

&lt;I&gt;A deep sense of awe came over them all, and the apostles performed many miraculous signs and wonders. And all the believers met together constantly and shared everything they had. They sold their possessions and shared the proceeds with those in need. They worshiped together at the Temple each day, met in homes for the Lord's Supper, and shared their meals with great joy and generosity-- all the while praising God and enjoying the goodwill of all the people. And each day the Lord added to their group those who were being saved.&lt;/I&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I like everything everyone is saying, but I sense that the seeker vs. missional church dillemma is less about activity and more about identity.  The &#8220;changes&#8221; many people are talking about in the church are really changes of &#8220;activity&#8221; &#8212; allowing women to do more, instruments in worship, the energy of worship, the enthusiasm of the preacher, etc.  What we need is a change in identity, and I think truly missional churches look vastly different than many of the churches we have today.</p>
<p>I just think Ryan Bolger&#8217;s article titled <a HREF="http://thebolgblog.typepad.com/thebolgblog/2005/10/please_no_more_.html" rel="nofollow">&#8220;Please, No More Doing Church For &#8216;Them&#8217;!&#8221;</a> speaks so much to this issue.</p>
<p>His assertion is that churches that claim to be relevant are almost never so.  In an attempt to be relevant, they alienate both the members and the &#8220;outsiders&#8221; (don&#8217;t like that terminology, but oh well&#8230;).</p>
<p>He also points to another problem churches have being relevant to the daily lives of &#8220;outsiders&#8221;:</p>
<p><i>A focus on the church service as connecting point perpetuates the idea that following Jesus is about going to church. The community&#8217;s life takes the form of American congregational religion rather than the fluid practices of the gospel, and this emphasis presents quite a barrier to the &#8217;seeker&#8217; outside, as they need to be converted to the values of American religious congregationalism before they can come to faith. Thus, virtually all of those who are attracted to the relevant service were raised in church or are currently going to another church &#8212; they are not the never-churched.</i></p>
<p>In contrast, the missional congregation:</p>
<p><i>&#8230;connects with those outside the faith by, well, connecting with those outside of the community in their world. Connecting happens not in a &#8216;come to us&#8217; CHURCH service, but through &#8216;go and dwell&#8217; church SERVICE, i.e. service in the community &#8212; living alternative lives.</i></p>
<p>Wow.  How many churches can say that something <i>other</i> than the Sunday morning service is the major connecting point in their fellowship?  Probably very few.  But Bolger&#8217;s assertions are not unlike the description of the church in Acts, where a once-a-week &#8220;service&#8221; was not at all central to the life of the community:</p>
<p><i>A deep sense of awe came over them all, and the apostles performed many miraculous signs and wonders. And all the believers met together constantly and shared everything they had. They sold their possessions and shared the proceeds with those in need. They worshiped together at the Temple each day, met in homes for the Lord&#8217;s Supper, and shared their meals with great joy and generosity&#8211; all the while praising God and enjoying the goodwill of all the people. And each day the Lord added to their group those who were being saved.</i></p>
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		<title>By: Mark Brazle</title>
		<link>http://preachermike.com/2006/01/22/113788128703571837#comment-7834</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Brazle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Jan 2006 15:47:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.preachermike.com/?p=686#comment-7834</guid>
		<description>Why are we here? What is the mission of the missional? 
I try desperately to stay out of it but I just have to share this: If you haven't read it, run and get Brennan Manning's, "The Importance of Being Foolish: How to Think Like Jesus". In his forward, Manning shares his "conviction that Jesus Christ lived and died and rose in order to for the Holy People of God--a community of Christians who would live under the sway of the Spirit, men and women who would be human torches aglow with the fire of love for Christ, prophets and lovers ignited with the flaming Spirit of the living God." (viii) May we as His people "deny ourselves" and be those daily cross bearers as we follow. May our only consumerism be that "of" ourselves not "for" ourselves. May we be lost in His glory in pursuits to His glory. May we watch for the cloud to move if we really want to know when it is time to move.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why are we here? What is the mission of the missional?<br />
I try desperately to stay out of it but I just have to share this: If you haven&#8217;t read it, run and get Brennan Manning&#8217;s, &#8220;The Importance of Being Foolish: How to Think Like Jesus&#8221;. In his forward, Manning shares his &#8220;conviction that Jesus Christ lived and died and rose in order to for the Holy People of God&#8211;a community of Christians who would live under the sway of the Spirit, men and women who would be human torches aglow with the fire of love for Christ, prophets and lovers ignited with the flaming Spirit of the living God.&#8221; (viii) May we as His people &#8220;deny ourselves&#8221; and be those daily cross bearers as we follow. May our only consumerism be that &#8220;of&#8221; ourselves not &#8220;for&#8221; ourselves. May we be lost in His glory in pursuits to His glory. May we watch for the cloud to move if we really want to know when it is time to move.</p>
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		<title>By: Joel Quile</title>
		<link>http://preachermike.com/2006/01/22/113788128703571837#comment-7833</link>
		<dc:creator>Joel Quile</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Jan 2006 15:21:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.preachermike.com/?p=686#comment-7833</guid>
		<description>"Here's my growing conviction: let's live missional lives--lives poured out for the world."

And when we reach "the world" how do we transform them from expecting to be served (after all, it was how we reached them in the first place) to expecting to serve?

I'm all about "others" but when the "others" become the "us" they tend to forget about the "others" and want to focus on the "us".

I know the simple answer: Preach Christ crucified.

I know the difficult answer: Preach Christ crucified.

I know the sad alternative: Don't preach Christ crucified and do preach church growth and then convert some "others" that will come and convert to "us" who will not convert any more "others" and who will hop churches should the preacher get the bright idea to preach Christ crucified!

Or, the former "others" who converted to "us" will decide that they want to stay and the preacher who only cares about the "others" and not the "us" should be fired (for preaching Christ crucified) and then the preacher gets to be the hopper!

God forgive us for we know not what we do.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Here&#8217;s my growing conviction: let&#8217;s live missional lives&#8211;lives poured out for the world.&#8221;</p>
<p>And when we reach &#8220;the world&#8221; how do we transform them from expecting to be served (after all, it was how we reached them in the first place) to expecting to serve?</p>
<p>I&#8217;m all about &#8220;others&#8221; but when the &#8220;others&#8221; become the &#8220;us&#8221; they tend to forget about the &#8220;others&#8221; and want to focus on the &#8220;us&#8221;.</p>
<p>I know the simple answer: Preach Christ crucified.</p>
<p>I know the difficult answer: Preach Christ crucified.</p>
<p>I know the sad alternative: Don&#8217;t preach Christ crucified and do preach church growth and then convert some &#8220;others&#8221; that will come and convert to &#8220;us&#8221; who will not convert any more &#8220;others&#8221; and who will hop churches should the preacher get the bright idea to preach Christ crucified!</p>
<p>Or, the former &#8220;others&#8221; who converted to &#8220;us&#8221; will decide that they want to stay and the preacher who only cares about the &#8220;others&#8221; and not the &#8220;us&#8221; should be fired (for preaching Christ crucified) and then the preacher gets to be the hopper!</p>
<p>God forgive us for we know not what we do.</p>
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		<title>By: eddy</title>
		<link>http://preachermike.com/2006/01/22/113788128703571837#comment-7832</link>
		<dc:creator>eddy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Jan 2006 14:52:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.preachermike.com/?p=686#comment-7832</guid>
		<description>Simplistic approach on what to look for in a church--Will this church family help me to love God with all of my heart, soul, mind and strength and help me love my neighbor as myself?  Tougher question--Will my membership/participation in this church family equip others to love God with all of their heart, soul, mind and strength and neighbor as self?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Simplistic approach on what to look for in a church&#8211;Will this church family help me to love God with all of my heart, soul, mind and strength and help me love my neighbor as myself?  Tougher question&#8211;Will my membership/participation in this church family equip others to love God with all of their heart, soul, mind and strength and neighbor as self?</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Duer</title>
		<link>http://preachermike.com/2006/01/22/113788128703571837#comment-7831</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Duer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Jan 2006 13:24:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.preachermike.com/?p=686#comment-7831</guid>
		<description>Maybe it would be helpful to discuss under what circumstances it would be appropriate to seek a new community of faith.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maybe it would be helpful to discuss under what circumstances it would be appropriate to seek a new community of faith.</p>
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		<title>By: KentF</title>
		<link>http://preachermike.com/2006/01/22/113788128703571837#comment-7830</link>
		<dc:creator>KentF</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Jan 2006 12:49:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.preachermike.com/?p=686#comment-7830</guid>
		<description>I honestly only see church hopping as an issue in areas where church offerings are varied and bountiful - i.e. Dallas, Houston, Abilene, Nashville, and, to a smaller degree, Lubbock and Tulsa.  And, yes, the more church offerings there are, the faster and more frequently they hop.

Conversely, I do believe there are a significant cofC percentage that attempt to be the type of person Mike describes and yet feel as though they are an alien in their own church for being that person.  No joy, celebratory worship or communion to return to with fellow travelers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I honestly only see church hopping as an issue in areas where church offerings are varied and bountiful - i.e. Dallas, Houston, Abilene, Nashville, and, to a smaller degree, Lubbock and Tulsa.  And, yes, the more church offerings there are, the faster and more frequently they hop.</p>
<p>Conversely, I do believe there are a significant cofC percentage that attempt to be the type of person Mike describes and yet feel as though they are an alien in their own church for being that person.  No joy, celebratory worship or communion to return to with fellow travelers.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Puckett</title>
		<link>http://preachermike.com/2006/01/22/113788128703571837#comment-7829</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Puckett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Jan 2006 00:36:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.preachermike.com/?p=686#comment-7829</guid>
		<description>Being in Florida, not a super strong cofc state, we often find it humorous when someone from the Bible belt comes to us and says they are visiting around to the different cofcs since we are just about the only church of any size (still small by Bible Belt terms, about 300).  However we teach often on the idea that the church is a place where everybody has their say, but no one individual or group has his or their way.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Being in Florida, not a super strong cofc state, we often find it humorous when someone from the Bible belt comes to us and says they are visiting around to the different cofcs since we are just about the only church of any size (still small by Bible Belt terms, about 300).  However we teach often on the idea that the church is a place where everybody has their say, but no one individual or group has his or their way.</p>
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		<title>By: Fajita</title>
		<link>http://preachermike.com/2006/01/22/113788128703571837#comment-7828</link>
		<dc:creator>Fajita</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Jan 2006 00:28:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.preachermike.com/?p=686#comment-7828</guid>
		<description>Thanks for declaring the end of church-hopper-centric ecclesiology.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for declaring the end of church-hopper-centric ecclesiology.</p>
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