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	<title>Comments on: Birth and Belief</title>
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	<link>http://preachermike.com/2005/06/09/111828485947082279</link>
	<description>Sniffing out the work of God in the world...</description>
	<pubDate>Tue, 07 Oct 2008 18:20:51 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Seeker</title>
		<link>http://preachermike.com/2005/06/09/111828485947082279#comment-4632</link>
		<dc:creator>Seeker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Jul 2005 15:44:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.preachermike.com/?p=528#comment-4632</guid>
		<description>What I have never been able to understand is how an honest CoC student of the Bible can live with the belief that their doctrine is anything more than preference. If we hold our own doctrines to the same fire we apply to other denominations, they quickly wither. 

The NT is very loose documentation of the life of Christ coupled with a scattered early church history (that identifies as many goofs as successes) and a few pointed letters that dance around moral and operational issues.  The honest student must conclude that either it's all a sham, or church practice and most doctrine was just not important enough to preserve in the holy writ. 

There's no description of worship practices (only motivation and focus). There's only cursory mention of leadership, and that appears to be comments on the traditional or opportunistic. There's no training guide for soul winning, meditation points for soul development or FAQ for problem situations.  With such a lack of explanation, you'd be drawn to assume that Christianity was merely a moral reformation of Judaistic practice - except for Paul's nasty habit of telling his Gentile cohorts to ignore the people pushing that belief system on them.

I think if you're a traditional CoC patternist and continue your studies you're going to come to the conclusion that either Christianity is a sham, or you're dead wrong about things.  The only alternative is to admit that God is a lot more inclusive than we've traditionally pictured him to be and is honestly focused on our hearts and not our denominating.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What I have never been able to understand is how an honest CoC student of the Bible can live with the belief that their doctrine is anything more than preference. If we hold our own doctrines to the same fire we apply to other denominations, they quickly wither. </p>
<p>The NT is very loose documentation of the life of Christ coupled with a scattered early church history (that identifies as many goofs as successes) and a few pointed letters that dance around moral and operational issues.  The honest student must conclude that either it&#8217;s all a sham, or church practice and most doctrine was just not important enough to preserve in the holy writ. </p>
<p>There&#8217;s no description of worship practices (only motivation and focus). There&#8217;s only cursory mention of leadership, and that appears to be comments on the traditional or opportunistic. There&#8217;s no training guide for soul winning, meditation points for soul development or FAQ for problem situations.  With such a lack of explanation, you&#8217;d be drawn to assume that Christianity was merely a moral reformation of Judaistic practice - except for Paul&#8217;s nasty habit of telling his Gentile cohorts to ignore the people pushing that belief system on them.</p>
<p>I think if you&#8217;re a traditional CoC patternist and continue your studies you&#8217;re going to come to the conclusion that either Christianity is a sham, or you&#8217;re dead wrong about things.  The only alternative is to admit that God is a lot more inclusive than we&#8217;ve traditionally pictured him to be and is honestly focused on our hearts and not our denominating.</p>
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		<title>By: mommy-court</title>
		<link>http://preachermike.com/2005/06/09/111828485947082279#comment-4631</link>
		<dc:creator>mommy-court</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Jun 2005 13:38:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.preachermike.com/?p=528#comment-4631</guid>
		<description>Mike, so glad you posted this on your blog.  I was born into the cofC and now attend a non-demoninational church...(i can almost see my grandmother rolling over in her grave now).  I, too, have pondered these thoughts many times and wondered who's right, who's wrong, etc. 

The fact of the matter is that we, as Christians, should be more interested in fighting the devil than each other.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mike, so glad you posted this on your blog.  I was born into the cofC and now attend a non-demoninational church&#8230;(i can almost see my grandmother rolling over in her grave now).  I, too, have pondered these thoughts many times and wondered who&#8217;s right, who&#8217;s wrong, etc. </p>
<p>The fact of the matter is that we, as Christians, should be more interested in fighting the devil than each other.</p>
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		<title>By: DJG</title>
		<link>http://preachermike.com/2005/06/09/111828485947082279#comment-4630</link>
		<dc:creator>DJG</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Jun 2005 18:13:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.preachermike.com/?p=528#comment-4630</guid>
		<description>I am not sure if you read other blogs or not, but &lt;a HREF="http://newlifeemerging.blogspot.com/2005/06/what-i-got-for-50000.html" rel="nofollow"&gt;Rick's blog&lt;/A&gt;
talks of almost the same thing from another denomination's standpoint.  Thought it was interesting.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am not sure if you read other blogs or not, but <a HREF="http://newlifeemerging.blogspot.com/2005/06/what-i-got-for-50000.html" rel="nofollow">Rick&#8217;s blog</a><br />
talks of almost the same thing from another denomination&#8217;s standpoint.  Thought it was interesting.</p>
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		<title>By: Blaine Tucker</title>
		<link>http://preachermike.com/2005/06/09/111828485947082279#comment-4629</link>
		<dc:creator>Blaine Tucker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Jun 2005 18:12:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.preachermike.com/?p=528#comment-4629</guid>
		<description>Mike,

Maybe it was due to a glare on my contact lens, but I read your last line as "But it does demand a bit of HUMANITY. Don't you think?"  Rather than "...humility..."

That small error really started me thinking about how appropriate that word would be (though humility also works quite well).

I taught the Bible in Italy for a few years, and I was often very humbled by the fact I was asking people to do something I never had to do: to turn their backs on their families, history, and tradition in the name of Jesus Christ.  In fact, that feeling was almost so strong at times that I could have been immobolized without conscious effort to let God work out the details for them.

The HUMANITY involved is that we need to realize, beyond spiritual truth, there is a physical truth that we all share this planet and must treat each other with decency and respect.  It shouldn't change our message, but it definately changes how we choose to present it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mike,</p>
<p>Maybe it was due to a glare on my contact lens, but I read your last line as &#8220;But it does demand a bit of HUMANITY. Don&#8217;t you think?&#8221;  Rather than &#8220;&#8230;humility&#8230;&#8221;</p>
<p>That small error really started me thinking about how appropriate that word would be (though humility also works quite well).</p>
<p>I taught the Bible in Italy for a few years, and I was often very humbled by the fact I was asking people to do something I never had to do: to turn their backs on their families, history, and tradition in the name of Jesus Christ.  In fact, that feeling was almost so strong at times that I could have been immobolized without conscious effort to let God work out the details for them.</p>
<p>The HUMANITY involved is that we need to realize, beyond spiritual truth, there is a physical truth that we all share this planet and must treat each other with decency and respect.  It shouldn&#8217;t change our message, but it definately changes how we choose to present it.</p>
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		<title>By: Holly</title>
		<link>http://preachermike.com/2005/06/09/111828485947082279#comment-4628</link>
		<dc:creator>Holly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Jun 2005 05:03:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.preachermike.com/?p=528#comment-4628</guid>
		<description>It strikes me as arrogant to think we got &lt;I&gt;everything&lt;/I&gt; right...at the same time I know I am blessed being born where I was, when I was.  Can we strike a balance somewhere between humility and arrogance that just leaves us grateful?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It strikes me as arrogant to think we got <i>everything</i> right&#8230;at the same time I know I am blessed being born where I was, when I was.  Can we strike a balance somewhere between humility and arrogance that just leaves us grateful?</p>
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		<title>By: Ted Mathis</title>
		<link>http://preachermike.com/2005/06/09/111828485947082279#comment-4627</link>
		<dc:creator>Ted Mathis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Jun 2005 04:37:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.preachermike.com/?p=528#comment-4627</guid>
		<description>&lt;I&gt;Denomination. &lt;/I&gt;

Is that what the Church of Christ is?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Denomination. </i></p>
<p>Is that what the Church of Christ is?</p>
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		<title>By: FeedingYourMind</title>
		<link>http://preachermike.com/2005/06/09/111828485947082279#comment-4626</link>
		<dc:creator>FeedingYourMind</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Jun 2005 03:43:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.preachermike.com/?p=528#comment-4626</guid>
		<description>Though fearing the attack of the some what thousands of readers Mr. Cope’s blog has, I will post this comment anyways as a thought looking for open-minded responses:

So if the born-into-Christianity Christian is “right” and the Morman born-into-a-Morman family is “right” and the Hindu born-into-Hinduism is “right”...then can they all be right?  Would that mean that the atheist born-into-atheism is “right?”  

I know most of the readers of this are thinking at this point, “well of course, not.  CofC is ‘right.’”  I mean as Mike mentioned...there is that “exclusivistic version of some churches.”  But as I suggested earlier, this comment is for the “open-minded” readers; the ones willing to imagine themselves in the others positions.  Imagine yourself as the “Hindu born-into-Hinduism” or, if you are Hindu, the Morman “born into-a-Morman family.”  In those cases, it’s just as easy to say you are “right” and CofC is not “right.”  

I don’t know, but the gist of this just makes me think this is some religious form of ethnocentrism.  Is there a term for that that I’m just ignorant of?  Religocentrism works for me!

I think it is in the college years that one can not help but question their religion and their up-bringing.  Whether one comes from Christianity or an Islamic background, it is during the college years that one is faced with the questions of “who am I?” and “what is my purpose?”  And in answering those questions and searching for an identity, questioning one’s faith is almost a MUST.  

I find it interesting to see how many people, college-aged specifically, actually do “throw up [their] hands in complete agnosticism” during this identity-crisis when asking themselves questions such as “Was I really that lucky . . . to be born into the one small little group that happened to nail interpretation?”  

So I don’t know.  I don’t know which religion is “right.”  Maybe the uncertainty does make me “throw up my hands in agnosticism”...but having said that I’ll end with this thought...

A friend once said to me, “how can you (or anyone for that matter) say there is no God, and be ‘right,’ when there have been for years millions of God-believers around the world?”  To that I would have to respond with this, “Look at all the people that thought the world was flat for many years versus the people that thought it was round.  Just because one group outrageously out-numbers another doesn’t mean they are “right.’”


P.S. Mike, for someone who wrote “I've been braindead recently” only 24 hours earlier you, sure went above and beyond the “deep-thought-provoking blog” today! Thanks for the GREAT discussion piece!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Though fearing the attack of the some what thousands of readers Mr. Cope’s blog has, I will post this comment anyways as a thought looking for open-minded responses:</p>
<p>So if the born-into-Christianity Christian is “right” and the Morman born-into-a-Morman family is “right” and the Hindu born-into-Hinduism is “right”&#8230;then can they all be right?  Would that mean that the atheist born-into-atheism is “right?”  </p>
<p>I know most of the readers of this are thinking at this point, “well of course, not.  CofC is ‘right.’”  I mean as Mike mentioned&#8230;there is that “exclusivistic version of some churches.”  But as I suggested earlier, this comment is for the “open-minded” readers; the ones willing to imagine themselves in the others positions.  Imagine yourself as the “Hindu born-into-Hinduism” or, if you are Hindu, the Morman “born into-a-Morman family.”  In those cases, it’s just as easy to say you are “right” and CofC is not “right.”  </p>
<p>I don’t know, but the gist of this just makes me think this is some religious form of ethnocentrism.  Is there a term for that that I’m just ignorant of?  Religocentrism works for me!</p>
<p>I think it is in the college years that one can not help but question their religion and their up-bringing.  Whether one comes from Christianity or an Islamic background, it is during the college years that one is faced with the questions of “who am I?” and “what is my purpose?”  And in answering those questions and searching for an identity, questioning one’s faith is almost a MUST.  </p>
<p>I find it interesting to see how many people, college-aged specifically, actually do “throw up [their] hands in complete agnosticism” during this identity-crisis when asking themselves questions such as “Was I really that lucky . . . to be born into the one small little group that happened to nail interpretation?”  </p>
<p>So I don’t know.  I don’t know which religion is “right.”  Maybe the uncertainty does make me “throw up my hands in agnosticism”&#8230;but having said that I’ll end with this thought&#8230;</p>
<p>A friend once said to me, “how can you (or anyone for that matter) say there is no God, and be ‘right,’ when there have been for years millions of God-believers around the world?”  To that I would have to respond with this, “Look at all the people that thought the world was flat for many years versus the people that thought it was round.  Just because one group outrageously out-numbers another doesn’t mean they are “right.’”</p>
<p>P.S. Mike, for someone who wrote “I&#8217;ve been braindead recently” only 24 hours earlier you, sure went above and beyond the “deep-thought-provoking blog” today! Thanks for the GREAT discussion piece!</p>
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		<title>By: WDS</title>
		<link>http://preachermike.com/2005/06/09/111828485947082279#comment-4625</link>
		<dc:creator>WDS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Jun 2005 03:15:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.preachermike.com/?p=528#comment-4625</guid>
		<description>Perhaps Jesus' remarks about the kingdom of God are not church related at all.  Perhaps "church" and "denomination" are ideas that would be so foreign to him.  On the other hand, at one point in his ministry, it was customary for him to attend synagogue; and what he built on Peter's confession was some form of a band of brothers.  We see God in people - person by person, region by region, not by names of groups, not by  winds of particular doctrines.  We see actions and the particular souls of people being bared.  I cast my lot with them wherever, whenever I see them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Perhaps Jesus&#8217; remarks about the kingdom of God are not church related at all.  Perhaps &#8220;church&#8221; and &#8220;denomination&#8221; are ideas that would be so foreign to him.  On the other hand, at one point in his ministry, it was customary for him to attend synagogue; and what he built on Peter&#8217;s confession was some form of a band of brothers.  We see God in people - person by person, region by region, not by names of groups, not by  winds of particular doctrines.  We see actions and the particular souls of people being bared.  I cast my lot with them wherever, whenever I see them.</p>
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		<title>By: Kyle</title>
		<link>http://preachermike.com/2005/06/09/111828485947082279#comment-4624</link>
		<dc:creator>Kyle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Jun 2005 01:33:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.preachermike.com/?p=528#comment-4624</guid>
		<description>When I was young my mother always told me that the Churches of Christs traditionally have believed that they were the only ones with the true interpretation of God's word, that in a sense we had a reputation for thinking we were going to heaven.  I was raised thinking that it was old thinking and only old people and people from tiny towns still thought this way.  As I got older I realized that this was not only false, but that I took issue with even more stuff that the CofCs believed or preached.  Specifically, the way that this tradition impaired the growth of so many churches.  When I got to ACU it was really pretty hard to find people my age who still bought into this mindset, but I was keenly aware of that presence.  Like you, Mike, the thought of having been born into a different faith has perplexed me. I also wonder why I was privilaged enough to be born a middle class white male in the U.S.  It was like winning the lottery.  With this said practically my entire family found other avenues of worship than the Church of Christ.  I think based on the fact that the majority still have those old school overtones, even if the mindset isn't prevailant.  My wife and I, both raised CoC are attending a Baptist church, mainly because it feels more like the church we both really liked in Abilene (Highland), than any Church of Christ.  And it doesn't feel baptist.  It just feels like Jesus worship, which is what I love the most.  I do miss some things, like the fact that no one knows of anyone who went to ACU or may not have even heard of ACU. (Isn't that where Hardin Simmons is?)  But what I love is that no one assumes that because I was raised in a particular congregation that I have a defined doctrine up my sleeve.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When I was young my mother always told me that the Churches of Christs traditionally have believed that they were the only ones with the true interpretation of God&#8217;s word, that in a sense we had a reputation for thinking we were going to heaven.  I was raised thinking that it was old thinking and only old people and people from tiny towns still thought this way.  As I got older I realized that this was not only false, but that I took issue with even more stuff that the CofCs believed or preached.  Specifically, the way that this tradition impaired the growth of so many churches.  When I got to ACU it was really pretty hard to find people my age who still bought into this mindset, but I was keenly aware of that presence.  Like you, Mike, the thought of having been born into a different faith has perplexed me. I also wonder why I was privilaged enough to be born a middle class white male in the U.S.  It was like winning the lottery.  With this said practically my entire family found other avenues of worship than the Church of Christ.  I think based on the fact that the majority still have those old school overtones, even if the mindset isn&#8217;t prevailant.  My wife and I, both raised CoC are attending a Baptist church, mainly because it feels more like the church we both really liked in Abilene (Highland), than any Church of Christ.  And it doesn&#8217;t feel baptist.  It just feels like Jesus worship, which is what I love the most.  I do miss some things, like the fact that no one knows of anyone who went to ACU or may not have even heard of ACU. (Isn&#8217;t that where Hardin Simmons is?)  But what I love is that no one assumes that because I was raised in a particular congregation that I have a defined doctrine up my sleeve.</p>
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		<title>By: Hoots Musings</title>
		<link>http://preachermike.com/2005/06/09/111828485947082279#comment-4623</link>
		<dc:creator>Hoots Musings</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Jun 2005 01:01:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.preachermike.com/?p=528#comment-4623</guid>
		<description>The right doctrine with the wrong
spirit will turn people away from Christ every time.

Thankful for you Mike and other believers who have the right spirit.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The right doctrine with the wrong<br />
spirit will turn people away from Christ every time.</p>
<p>Thankful for you Mike and other believers who have the right spirit.</p>
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		<title>By: Neal W.</title>
		<link>http://preachermike.com/2005/06/09/111828485947082279#comment-4622</link>
		<dc:creator>Neal W.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Jun 2005 19:36:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.preachermike.com/?p=528#comment-4622</guid>
		<description>JM - 

In a sense, I'm a rookie, but I'm going through a similar experience...not sure what to tell you...Don and Mike's advice sounds like the right thing...if we can only DO it.  If you want to, you can find my e-mail through my blog...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>JM - </p>
<p>In a sense, I&#8217;m a rookie, but I&#8217;m going through a similar experience&#8230;not sure what to tell you&#8230;Don and Mike&#8217;s advice sounds like the right thing&#8230;if we can only DO it.  If you want to, you can find my e-mail through my blog&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Frank Bellizzi</title>
		<link>http://preachermike.com/2005/06/09/111828485947082279#comment-4621</link>
		<dc:creator>Frank Bellizzi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Jun 2005 19:30:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.preachermike.com/?p=528#comment-4621</guid>
		<description>I think I used to figure,  Hey, if there's a single best contemporary expression of Christianity, SOMEBODY has to be born into it, right?  (Unless, of course, it's a celibate sect).  

And about Joseph Smith's tablets, here's a better one: from about 95-1812 A.D., there's no Christian history.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think I used to figure,  Hey, if there&#8217;s a single best contemporary expression of Christianity, SOMEBODY has to be born into it, right?  (Unless, of course, it&#8217;s a celibate sect).  </p>
<p>And about Joseph Smith&#8217;s tablets, here&#8217;s a better one: from about 95-1812 A.D., there&#8217;s no Christian history.</p>
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		<title>By: PBS</title>
		<link>http://preachermike.com/2005/06/09/111828485947082279#comment-4620</link>
		<dc:creator>PBS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Jun 2005 19:19:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.preachermike.com/?p=528#comment-4620</guid>
		<description>J.M. of Reaching and Searching,
I went through and am going through a similar situation.  I would love to share thoughts and encouragments with you.  Please email me at perrysims@verizon.net</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>J.M. of Reaching and Searching,<br />
I went through and am going through a similar situation.  I would love to share thoughts and encouragments with you.  Please email me at <a href="mailto:perrysims@verizon.net">perrysims@verizon.net</a></p>
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		<title>By: Tommy</title>
		<link>http://preachermike.com/2005/06/09/111828485947082279#comment-4619</link>
		<dc:creator>Tommy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Jun 2005 18:58:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.preachermike.com/?p=528#comment-4619</guid>
		<description>I've always said when we're in sunday school saying we can't understand why they don't get it, they are in sunday school saying they can't understand why we don't get it.  They believe what they believe as strongly as we do.  Everybody wants to take the bible and search, translate, add, etc till we think we have it figured out.  We have it figured out, we're right, you're wrong, why can't you see it, it's right there in Jude 15:3.  I hope I'm never conceted enough to think that God gave me and select few people a special ability to figure it all out.  I'm not smarter than most.  Most of us do believe that Jesus Christ was the son of God and the only way to Heaven is through him.  Good enough for me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve always said when we&#8217;re in sunday school saying we can&#8217;t understand why they don&#8217;t get it, they are in sunday school saying they can&#8217;t understand why we don&#8217;t get it.  They believe what they believe as strongly as we do.  Everybody wants to take the bible and search, translate, add, etc till we think we have it figured out.  We have it figured out, we&#8217;re right, you&#8217;re wrong, why can&#8217;t you see it, it&#8217;s right there in Jude 15:3.  I hope I&#8217;m never conceted enough to think that God gave me and select few people a special ability to figure it all out.  I&#8217;m not smarter than most.  Most of us do believe that Jesus Christ was the son of God and the only way to Heaven is through him.  Good enough for me.</p>
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		<title>By: trying</title>
		<link>http://preachermike.com/2005/06/09/111828485947082279#comment-4618</link>
		<dc:creator>trying</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Jun 2005 18:18:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.preachermike.com/?p=528#comment-4618</guid>
		<description>I've always found it interesting how much we detest the fanaticism of many Muslims when we cheer it on it other Christians. We look down on their devotion to their faith- a faith they have because they were born in another part of the world. Somehow, though, them fighting for their beliefs is different than us fighting for ours (and at least they are actually fighting for their religion- we're fighting for democracy, which is not Christianity). I can't help but admire devoted believers of any faith- and pray that we can show them the truth so their devotion may be used for the true good!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve always found it interesting how much we detest the fanaticism of many Muslims when we cheer it on it other Christians. We look down on their devotion to their faith- a faith they have because they were born in another part of the world. Somehow, though, them fighting for their beliefs is different than us fighting for ours (and at least they are actually fighting for their religion- we&#8217;re fighting for democracy, which is not Christianity). I can&#8217;t help but admire devoted believers of any faith- and pray that we can show them the truth so their devotion may be used for the true good!</p>
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