Having been acquainted with a man through counseling who was overwhelmed with these tendencies, I assure you, those passions were very real to him and even seemed normal.

I know a person who aches to come out of the closet but he hasn’t found a group yet — inside or outside the church — whom he could trust. He doesn’t believe that scripture teaches the practice is permissible, but he struggles with his passion and wishes he could find a group who would “love him whole”.

But that may not happen. And if it doesn’t, I pray that he will find that God is big enough to care for him even when the support of others is missing.

And, sometimes, for whatever reason, when we find ourselves alone with God because we can’t trust humans or because they simply don’t understand, we experience His Presence in a profound way.

I think, though, that at some point I’ll finish out in the e-mail conversation my thoughts on sin as a state of being v. sin as a verb. (It’ll have to be early next week, though, as I’m about to be net-less till Tuesday. Silly cable company…)

I don’t think you are discounting what I’ve said at all. You are doing the very thing I long for us to do in the body of Christ–struggle with the issue. I’m not willing to say that genetics negates responsibility, but I do believe genetics complicates things a whole lot. It raises questions of God’s nature and goodness, as well as the nature of sin itself. If science proves a genetic link to homosexuality, then we will have to struggle with questions of God’s nature (How could he make someone genetically disposed to sin?) and even our views on original sin. But, science is not there yet and may never be. I’m not a scientist, so I don’t know. All I am advocating is that Christians be willing to find the work of God in science and not simply discount everything beyond exegesis as “worldly.” If God is creator of all, then it seems there are other places that might profess truth other than the pages of the Bible.

About the use of “sin”. This is something I’m thinking through right now. Often we think of “sin” as individual, isolated actions. “I sinned when I had that evil thought.” “You sinned when you said that bad word.” “I sin everyday.” Or, “I sinned last Tuesday.” Is sin individual, isolated actions or is it a state of being? Yes, “all have sinned…” But Paul seems to go on to describe sin as a state of being outside of Christ. Once we were slaves to sin, but now we are slaves to righteousness. We are “in the world” or we are “in the Spirit.” Perhaps sin is more than what we do, maybe sin is where we are, a state be being before entering into the Kingdom of God. Becoming a Christian means we have be transferred to a new state of being, in Christ. Yes, we may still live in ways contrary to the Spirit, but that doesn’t mean that we are still “in sin.”

I say all that to say this: What if a devout Christian, committed to imitating Christ in their life, has, through their study of scripture and the movement of the Holy Spirit, decided that their gay lifestyle is both acceptable and blessed by God? Even if it is a sin and they are mistaken about this, does not their “in Christ-ness” still count them as one who is saved? Be careful how you answer this question. If you say no, then that means that all Christians, regardless of their sexual orientation, must understand God’s will perfectly and never live in a contrary way to His order. That would mean Christians who justify not helping the poor are, well, going to hell, no matter how committed they are to Christ. Or, Christians who justify their continual gossip are going to hell.

We must remember that there are sincere, God-fearing people who have wrestled with scripture and God and have come down on the side in favor of the gay lifestyle. They are not Christians who say, “I could care less about what God thinks. I’m going to do what I want and let grace cover my sins.” They are Christians who have wrestled for years with being gay, fighting it, studying it, praying to overcome it, and have come out on the other side feeling that God has blessed it. Yes, some may not agree with this position, and I’m not saying I do or don’t, but please do not discount their sincerity and desire to follow Christ. Perhaps we should struggle with our “issues” as seriously as my friends who are gay have struggled instead of so flippantly accepting our issues while criticizing and demonizing the issues of others.

What if science does prove homosexuality is a genetic tendency? Isn’t there a genetic bias toward alcoholism as well? And before someone says that desiring a drink is very different from the desires Travis has described here, I have to say that I’ve seen entirely too many families ripped apart by it and too many lives destroyed because of it.

Does a genetic pre-disposition give one a right to opt out of responsibility?

I’m not discounting what you’ve said here; your heart is really in this and you’ve said it very well. I’ve known people who struggle with this, too, and one who decided that a transgender operation was the best answer.

I believe it was you who brought up (a book about?) the existance of hermaphrodites. It’s a good question, too; how does the existence of those situations impact our understanding?

I don’t know. There are a lot of questions for which I haven’t yet found answers. I hope you keep asking, though.

Let’s get back to the discussion. I got Edward’s article as well a few days ago and was not completely thrilled with it, perhaps because I have witness the struggle with friends over being gay. To me, the issue is much more complicated than denying yourself or fighting over linguistic arguments. We have some real complicated issues to work through here. What if science proves to us that homosexuality is genetic, then what? There are people I’ve known personally who can remember having these feelings as a young child. What if it is not simply a choice as we often say it is?

In Edward’s article he says that Christians who are becoming more tolerant of Homosexuality are being led by the world not the Holy Spirit. Yet, I have heard church leaders who are studying and exploring the issue trying their hardest to decipher the way the Holy Spirit is moving in this issue. If we truly believe that the Holy Spirit indwells and inspires more than the writers of the Bible, then we must do our best to see what the Spirit is doing in the church today. Offering a blanket condemnation of all Christians who are exploring tolerance on this issue, saying it is conforming to the world, seems to be a bit of an overstatement. Serious, devout, and holy Christians are exploring the issue with as much Spiritual sensitivity as a Christian could muster. Just because they come down on a different side of the issue than others doesn’t mean they are simply giving into the world’s leading.

As for my position, I’m still in the questioning stage. Life circumstances have forced me to dwell in the ambiguity of this issue a bit. I desire to hear Christians seriously think about this issue, without reciting the same Romans texts we have grown to love. I want Christians to listen to the other side of the issue, ask science what they are discovering, and try to decipher what the Holy Spirit is doing in our world today. For me, desiring truth means I’m willing to question, debate, and listen to others. Maybe I’m sounding too “truth is all relative” and “be tolerant of everyone” (I am what they call a “postmodern”, whatever that means). That is not what I’m trying to communicate. I’m simply saying I don’t appreciate letters like Fudge’s who seem to have it all figured out. Humanity is complicated. Sin is complicated. God is complicated. And the fact that God has given the Church His Spirit to dwell among complicates the complicated even more.

I want to ask the hard questions. I want to ask what it is like to have a same-sex attraction since you are a young child. I want to ask what it is like to be repeatedly told that your deepest desires, if acted on, will condemn you forever to hell. I want to ask what it is like to hear Christians joke from the pulpit and in classes about your struggle. I want to ask what it is like to spend years listening to success stories from Dennis Jernigan and Exodus Ministries, reading books by Neil Anderson that are suppose to help you overcome, and spending hours in counseling sessions and support groups only to find that God doesn’t take your desires away but, instead, they seem to intensify. I want to ask what it is like to desire so badly to have someone to love for the rest of your life and whom you can have children with, but knowing that your dreams will never happen. If we start asking harder questions, I think we will become a bit more sensitive and Christ-like when dealing with this issue, no matter what side of the discussion we come down on.

I’m sure my response will not be popular to all, but I wanted to add my voice to the discussion. I’m not trying to be controversial or “liberal for liberal’s sake”. All I desire is for the church to seriously and compassionately listen to all sides of the issue and make an informed judgment based on all the voices. If this is what you’ve done, praise God. Unfortunately, most of the debate about homosexuality seems to come from married heterosexual fathers who have never been personally involved with someone who is gay. It is easy to condone the gay lifestyle when we are happily married, with kids (or have the possibility of kids), having the whole world in front of us. It is easy for those of us who have never had this struggle to simply say, “Deny your passions”. (Do we really do this ourselves?) Before we condemn, we must live with people and put ourselves in their shoes and try to understand what our condemnation may sound like to them. Thanks for listening and I welcome the feedback.

A couple of reactions to Fudge’s letter. He writes:

“Modern society regards divorce as an easy escape from discomfort or as a means to self-fulfillment when one’s spouse loses that “special” aura or appeal.”

While I’m not sure what is meant by “modern society,” it seems to me that populist measures to extend marriage rights to homosexuals is exactly opposite to those who treat marriage as a disposible matter. The fact that gays and lesbians want to get married is a sign that the institution of marriage is still highly respected, contrary to pop sociological predictions that marriage would be a non-issue by now.

Secondly, many theological responses to homosexuality are more sophisticated than linguistic approaches. The church has stuggled in the past with divorce and remarriage issues, using terminology such as “married in the eyes of God.” Polygomy has been addressed in sevearal ways by CoC missionaries.

Perhaps we would be more comfortable if relationships were more normative than they are in our world? Perhaps we want to believe that homosexuality can be dealt with in a brief, kind letter?

On a more serious note, I haven’t lived as long as many of the other bloggers here, but I have realized this: In every dealing with another human being, whether over a controversial topic, a sin in someone’s life, a scripture, church politics, or whatever, the other person is ALWAYS the most important consideration. At the end of the talk, whether we both agree or not, we are called to love that person as a creation of the Almighty. We see that all the way through Jesus’ life, but so many of us have not adopted that belief into our lives.

What does this conviction look like? Well, it means inviting the openly gay couple to the neighborhood block party at your house (my parents did this when we lived in New England…very powerful lesson to my brother and me), intentionally putting yourself in situations to better understand the power of homosexuality, and most importantly, being a genuine friend to those who deal with that lifestyle every day. The more Christians who truly befriend persons who are “living alternatively”, the more Christians will be trusted by gays and lesbians. As it is, the consensus in the American homosexual community is that all Christians not only disprove of their lifestyle, but believe that they are less of a person and not worth getting to know because of their choices.

Hate to say it, but Jesus would be in the gay bars of today befriending and loving on these people, wanting desparately for them to know Him as one who can wash them, even them, anew.

For reasons I cannot explain, God has brought to my wife and me men and women who call themselves homosexual since the beginning of our marriage 9 years ago. Some of them have been on staff at brotherhood universities, some sons and daughters of elders, some deeply involved in church missions and some without a clue of God’s love for them. To a person, we’ve tried to live the “love the sinner, not the sin” mandate while challenging them to seek freedom in Christ.

Where we have struggled is in the practical steps of helping them find freedom. Knowing a few men ourselves who have overcome this in their lives, we’ve connected the seekers together with the overcomers. Sometimes this has been extremely helpful and sometimes not. Dennis Jernigan’s story has helped many. Neil Anderson’s “Bondage Breaker” has helped some. Prayer and fasting have helped others. We ache though that more who have come to us have not been freed than have.

If anyone has had particular “success” in ministering within this realm, I’d love to hear from you. Like I said, we’ve not asked for it but for all of the first 9 years of our marriage, we’ve always had a direct relationship with someone seeking freedom in this area.

May they (and we) all find the freedom we seek…

When issues like this arise, I believe that scripture makes God’s heart known. I also believe that sometimes, our decisions/conclusions shouldn’t be about the end to our desires/questions, but must go beyond us. Not to get all John Piper on everyone, but our heart’s desire should be bringing pleasure to God and recognizing his holiness. If that is true, then nothing is this world matters to us.

Imagine one giving up not only unholy behaviors, but also surrendering the gifts God has given us for our enjoyment in order to truly fulfill His pleasure. It’s an absurd thought that people would give up their own gifts (such as a heterosexual marriage, that God gave us) to pursue nothing but pointing others to the glory of God. But that’s what Paul did. It’s not for everyone, but what a powerful testimony to anyone who gives up their dreams, wealth, high position, relationships or whatever, so that their lives will truly be in pursuit of making God’s glory known. We all know people like that, Rich Mullens, Mother Teresa, people in our churches, on and on.

While I’m all for approaching this issue or any other with a balance between grace and truth, I also believe that homosexuality, instrumental music, women’s roles, and yes even the Fox News debate, or whatever else we tend to blog discuss, should all be examined with less “me” and more under the context of what will delight Almighty God and take His holiness, glory, and renown to the nations. A different twist, but I hope it makes sense. The issue is never about us, but it’s always about God.

May the body of Christ be like our head, may we be full of grace and truth as we deal with a broken world.

I guess the “instrumental/women’s role/Calvinism/Foxnews” debate was getting a bit boring for you Mike?

You’re awesome. I praise God for your boldness. Or is that “blogness?”

I’ve had these discussions with people before, often as a result of an experience here at the Grad School. The most common argument used is the linguistic one, in which people take 5 or 6 “proof texts” against homosexuality, and disarm the argument by arguing for the “male prostitute” angle. They also use the “God is happy that we have found each other, and are in a committed, monogamous relationship.”

Fudge reminds us that God’s prime interest is not necessarily in our happiness, but our holiness. This way of thinking takes the linguistic argument, places it aside, and instead of choosing to focus on a few verses that condemn homosexual lifestyles, helps us to focud on the entire scope of Scripture, one in which God reveals his plan for His creation.

Thanks again, and thanks for the boldness the not shy away from tricky subjects.