You got me: I’m not a brother. ^_~

As to the question of war, I agree that this one is hard to reconcile. I also agree that not stopping evil is arguably worse. I just don’t have a good answer when stopping evil requires evil. It also doesn’t help to know that there are places in the world where things are much “worse,” if such a thing can be quantified. I know there is cruelty and oppression in Iraq. But I also know that I would rather live in Iraq, Israel or Palestine vs. a lot of places in Africa when it comes to troubled places. At least in certain areas of the middle east, if I were to die, it would likely be reasonably quick. And beyond one human oppressing another, there are plenty of places where no one has time to work out dictatorial oppression because everyone is too busy starving to death and wondering whether they’ll have to sell another child into slavery just to feed what remains of the family for the next few weeks. And we don’t even need to go outside our own borders to find similar situations. Children starve here, too. Some people fear for their lives daily. Some wonder not only where their next meals will come from, but also where and whether they’ll sleep tonight. It’s almost a mote/speck argument to me; we have our own oppressions.

There’s so much we can do here, if we’re truly concerned about what’s best for the world. True religion isn’t really always stopping the bad guys, it’s caring for the helpless: the orphan, the widow and the alien who dwells among you.

I’m glad that Greg and others like him are going out to minister in different largely unreached areas. But I hope equally that those of us here will see the need, too. I don’t know that God has called us as a nation to be ‘big brother’ to the world. He never called Israel to do so. He didn’t call the early Christians to do so. It just seems that God doesn’t often work through the powerful and the important and the ‘world powers.’ He seems to prefer the Moseses, the Gideons, and even unimportant Jewish girls like Mary.

I think at this point, though, particularly since so many of our men and women are over there, there’s just not a good answer. We’ve tried to “build” Iraq before. Our past help is part of the reason we’re back now. Are we really, in the long run, doing any good there?

I’m with you in the Lord’s prayer. But sometimes it’s hard to discern his will.

I don’t think you’re weaker, and I certainly don’t think you’re a brother. I am grateful, however, that we live in a place where these and other ideas can be discussed in an open forum.

I would not easily be moved off the position that all of us take our personal and spiritual liberty for granted. And on the day Ronald Reagan died, I do wonder how things might be different if a Reagan-esque figure had assumed the presidency of the Soviet Union in 1980 and a weaker individual had been leading the United States during that time.

Quite honestly, I’m not sure how a government can go from birth to maturity while adequately honoring God (perhaps because I have a hard enough time figuring out how I should). Can one justify the American Revolution? The Civil War? WW I or II? All, to some degree, paved the way for our existing freedoms, yet all required people killing people, which certainly doesn’t seem to fit Christ’s model of service and submission.

And while the current war is difficult to reconcile with kingdom living, so does not stopping one power mercilessly torture and kill human beings when you have the ability to do so. Which is more antithetical to the life of Christ: killing someone in war or not defending the defenseless when given the opportunity?

I think I’m going to stop now and say the Lord’s prayer…

I’m not campaigning for all people to stop saying the pledge. This isn’t just something I grew up believing: my dad is a navy vet; both he and my mother have always taught me to respect our government, our flag and to be grateful to live in the US. (Heck, I was even a Girl Scout for 15 years; I think I’ve known the proper etiquette for flag ceremonies since I was 5 or 6.) I have a deep respect for our country, it’s people and their history, our soldiers past and present. But personally, I’m not comfortable saying the pledge. It asks me to pledge my allegiance to something that I don’t believe exists.

Doesn’t mean I’m not happy to live here or that I don’t appreciate the freedoms or even that, if called to do so, I wouldn’t fight to protect them. It also doesn’t mean I harbor a desire to overthrow it, don’t pay my taxes or don’t vote. It means I can’t affirm about 80% of the pledge. I still “render unto Caesar” and “submit to governing authority.” I’m even a fan of the Constitution. ^_~

You contend that saying the pledge isn’t significantly different from the Lord’s prayer because both are unfulfilled in the present. I understand your point. However, I have more faith that the Lord’s prayer will be fulfilled — ultimately, at least, if not imminently — while most of what I’ve seen in the States is our continuing journey away from our own idea of who we are.

I definitely don’t want to irk anybody, especially on something like this. If I’m in a situation in which the pledge is said, I stand, remain respectful, but I don’t say it. It’s not exactly because I’m opposed to saying a pledge, it’s because I can’t affirm this one. For me to stand and say something I don’t believe is for me to lie. So I abstain. I don’t think any less or any more of people who don’t or do. I guess it’s a conscience thing; perhaps this makes me the weaker brother. If so, I hope I mature to a point where it’s no longer a transgression of my conscience to say it. Dunno.

(This sounds incredibly like the discussion I had a few days ago when someone asked me why I don’t capitalize “satan.” Eventually, I just blamed John Fortner.) ^_~

Does baptism make you a bad American (or German or Brazilian or Rwandan)? Well, that’s a bit tongue-in-cheek. But yes–of course it does in one sense.

In baptism you say:

“I am no longer primarily identified as a citizen of this country. It may say that on my birth certificate. But I am now marked as a citizen of heaven who lives as an alien and stranger here.”

“I am no longer taking as my defining stories the ones I hear in American history class. My defining stories are not those of Paul Revere and George Washington but those of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Ester, Paul–and, of course, primarily of Jesus.”

“I am no longer committed to our national good at the expense of other people.”

“My primarily community is comprised of those of all nations who call on Jesus.”

“I believe that nations come and go but that the kingdom of Christ will continue to break forth.”

As I said in the post, being a Christ-follower does make you an even better citizen in other senses. But likely not in the ways that the powers of this world will recognize.

The only exception I can think of would be a country which demands its citizens not be Christlike or somehow deny allegiance to Christ. There obviously are places like that in our world, even today, but the U.S. is not one of them. We have the freedom to be Christlike here, and God forbid we fail in that endeavor.

I would hope we would all receive the blessings of living in the U.S. like we receive our other blessings: not to hoard for ourselves but to use in the blessing of others.

For example, I have been blessed to be part of a wonderful, Christian family. I don’t worship them (nor are all of my family members God-fearing, kingdom people), but I certainly love and cherish them dearly. I appreciate what they’ve meant to me and how they’ve participated in my coming to Christ. I don’t see why one couldn’t honor his/her country in that way.

While I’m being contrarian, I would contend, Quiara, that while our country hasn’t accomplished in full the various planks in the Pledge of Allegiance, there is such a thing as stating something in the present that hasn’t completely happened but which we hope will. I’m thinking of the Lord’s prayer here. I know for a fact that I regularly fail to live up to those standards. I’m still going to pray it, though, because I want His kingdom to come.

I’m going back off the record now.

But there in lies the paradox of sorts. Americans, love this land that gives them the freedom to be patriotic or to openly criticize poloicies, and laws that they disagre with. Jesus told his audience when asked about paying taxes, to give to Caeser what is Caeser’s and God what is God’s. So, vote, applaud the selflessness of those military men, and women who paid the ultimate price to defend the flag that inspires them still, be good citizens, obey the laws of the land, and be a follower of Jesus Christ, pray for our leaders, lend a helping hand to our neighbor. Paul was openly a Roman citizen, and yet wrote passionately about his citizenship in heaven, may we be able to recoginze and respect our dual citizenship. Just thinking out loud.

John Howard Yoder was Camp’s mentor at Notre Dame - I’m not sure anyone has shaped his views on this more than Yoder - I’d be very interested to hear your views on Stanley Hauerwas’ stuff and John Howard Yoder’s “Politics of Jesus”.

These two have changed my thinking alot - I’d also be interested in hearing what else you’ve read that has shaped your views on this. You seem to support the Just War Tradition somewhat - where Camp, Yoder, and Hauerwas don’t.

The vast majority of our pledge is badly worded. We are one nation, but we are only “under God” insofar as everything on earth is “under God.” We seem no longer to claim or even to desire to be a nation under God’s control. We are not indivisible and so far we’ve yet to achieve liberty and justice for all. And I don’t think we will outside the kingdom — and I’m not even sure we’re promised it there. I don’t think I want God’s justice to be meted out toward me; I’m praying for grace.

I don’t feel that the emblem of the United States is emblematic of the mission of the kingdom of God. Democracy is probably one of the most detrimental influences in understanding what it is to submit to a king. I don’t dislike democracy. I’m glad to have the right to vote and the opportunity to change even only my small corner of the world. But on focusing on my right and my freedoms, I sometimes forget that I’m still a slave — true, to a better master, but still a slave.

Not the most coherent answer, but that’s all I’ve got.